star trek tng interviews

Star trek: the next generation 's series finale at 30 (exclusive), "all good things..." co-writer brannon braga on how he and former writing partner ronald d. moore made tv history..

Thirty years ago today, Star Trek writers Brannon Braga and Ronald D. Moore found themselves shouldering the unique responsibility of simultaneously writing The Next Generation cast's first Trek movie while also scripting their last episode of television.

For others, the dual writing duties would likely feel (at best) overwhelming. But that wasn't the case for Braga.

"We didn't flinch," Braga tells the Television Academy in an exclusive interview celebrating the 30th anniversary of TNG 's series finale, "All Good Things...," which aired in syndication on May 23, 1994. "I can't speak for Ron, but I don't recall us ever saying, 'Should we be doing this?' We were deeply immersed in these characters. And I think there was something cool about doing a two-hour finale and the movie at the same time, because they were very different stories."

But both "All Good Things..." and what would go on to be the seventh Star Trek feature film, Generations , were similar in that they dealt with one of Trek 's most popular plot and thematic devices: time. Ironically, time was also foremost on the then–writing team's minds as they juggled both scripts — with roughly three weeks allotted to write the series finale. Moore and Braga were in the middle of rewriting a draft of Generations when they were tapped by the late TNG showrunner (and Braga's mentor) Michael Piller to script "All Good Things...." The riveting two-part episode features Captain Picard (Sir Patrick Stewart) moving back and forth across three different time periods — with the help of his omnipotent nemesis, Q (John de Lancie) — on a mission to save the galaxy from an anti-time anomaly. As Picard struggles to restore temporal order to the universe, he must interact with three different versions of his beloved Enterprise-D crew — past, present and future — in ways that remind the considerate and accomplished starship captain to better appreciate how vital the here and now is, even in the time travel–heavy world of Star Trek .

Whereas Generations would garner mixed reviews from both audiences and critics upon its release in November 1994, "All Good Things..." quickly became a fan-favorite and is regarded by many as one of the most creatively successful series finales in TV history.

"It proved ultimately to be what the movie should have been," Braga explains. "The movie had a lot of cooks in the kitchen. There were many studio mandates. It was conceived to be a 'passing of the baton.' On 'All Good Things...,' [Paramount] largely left us alone. We were left to do what we do, and I think you can feel the benefit of that in the final product."

In honor of the 30th anniversary of "All Good Things...," Braga takes us behind the scenes of the writing process, shares which pivotal scene he and Moore watched being filmed and why a fourth timeline featuring the Borg was ultimately cut from the story.

Television Academy: Traditionally, the showrunner writes the series finale, but not in TNG 's case. Do you recall when you and Ron were assigned the finale, and maybe what Michael's thinking was at the time with that assignment?

Brannon Braga: I don't know the exact timeline. But I do know that we received the movie assignment sometime in the seventh season of Next Gen . Because I remember we were pretty much in the throes of our 26-episode season and how excited we were. And that's a much longer development process, a movie. It's slower and bigger and more complicated. And, in the meantime, you're racing along with the TV show. I also remember not being too worried about [writing both the movie and the finale] because the TV schedule was such that the movie was a marathon, and the TV show was a sprint. And you just had to get the TV episodes written. So in some ways, I don't think we lost a step.

As for why we were chosen, I think [ TNG executive producer] Jeri Taylor was probably already working on Star Trek: Voyager . And Michael, I believe, was also developing Voyager , but he still had a hand in Deep Space Nine .

When during TNG 's run was it discussed that the seventh season would be its last, at the height of its ratings popularity?

Those conversations were happening really early. And the reason I remember that is because Michael Piller asked me to go [write on] Deep Space Nine at the end of season six of Next Gen . Piller wanted me to come over, and he really thought I would fit well with the concept. And I really liked Deep Space Nine . I love its concept, and I was really enchanted with the idea of working on that kind of Star Trek . But because he gave me the option, I declined. And the reason I gave him was, "I want to see Next Gen through to the end." And that's because I knew, at that point, that season seven was going to be the last season. But I didn't know about "All Good Things..." at that point. I didn't know that I would be working on the final episode. I just knew that I had to see Next Gen through, emotionally.

You and Ron seem to have taken the news rather well, of writing the last episode of Next Gen while in the middle of writing that cast's first movie.

I remember feeling excited. We didn't flinch. I can't speak for Ron, but I don't recall us ever saying, 'Should we be doing this?' We were deeply immersed in these characters. Ron had been writing the show for five seasons. I'd been writing it for four. That's nine seasons, collectively. And we were just in the middle of it. And I think there was something cool about doing a two-hour finale and the movie at the same time, because they were very different stories. For the finale, we were going to tell a movie-sized story with significant developments in the characters.

It's funny that "All Good Things..." was the easiest of the two. We wrote that much more quickly, I think we had three weeks on that script. It felt easier, because the movie had [input from] William Shatner, Patrick Stewart, the studio and [ TNG producer] Rick Berman. The movie had a lot of cooks in the kitchen. A lot of mandates. It was conceived as a "passing of the baton." It had to have [Captain] Kirk, it had to have the Klingons. And Leonard Nimoy, at one point, crossed paths [with directing Generations ].

What was the notes process like on the finale, or did the studio pretty much leave you alone?

[Paramount] largely left us alone. The studio wasn't giving us notes. We were left to do what we do, and I think one can feel the benefit of that in the final product. Rick gave us notes, I'm sure, but not many. And it was his suggestion for Picard's last line, in the poker scene, the "sky's the limit" line.

Speaking of that last scene, where Picard joins the crew's traditional poker game for the first time, I know that also was the last scene shot for the show. Were you able to go to set for that?

That was the one time Ron and I went to the set. We didn't go to the set often, because there was usually no time when you're doing 26 episodes. You're either writing or in the writers' room. But we went down for certain scenes. We went down to meet Stephen Hawking, who was in another poker scene [the season six episode "Descent, Part I"]. But for the finale's poker scene, we just wanted to be there, because we knew it was the final scene. It was the last scene to be shot. It was a strange mixture of emotions, because there were tears. Some people were very moved, because this was the end of seven years. The show was enormously popular at the time. It was taken off air at the height of its popularity, which was a smart move in some ways.

But despite the bittersweetness of it all, they were reconfiguring the sets for the movie. The movie started shooting in a week. There was a compartmentalization going on. The show was the show, and the movies were the movies. They were just different. But it was a very emotional moment. And I think that almost always comes across on-screen. I think you sense the authenticity of what the actors are going through in that scene. To me, that scene boils down to the subtlety of Patrick's performance. And I would credit Marina Sirtis [who plays the Enterprise 's empathic counselor Deanna Troi] with her delivery of the "You were always welcome" line to Patrick. It was very moving. Marina's a great actress, very instinctive.

The anomaly Picard and the Enterprise crew must stop concerns anti-time, which is a very clever concept and plot twist. How did you and Ron come up with that?

I distinctly remember sitting in Ron's office and coming up with the phrase "anti-time." That came out when we were writing; I think I was typing and Ron was pacing, which was usually the case. We hadn't really figured out all the particulars or what we sometimes called "technobabble," but in this case, I think it was conceptual. The conceit was coming up with the anti-matter equivalent of time. And it was just one of those things where you suddenly had something to hang your hat on, like, "If it's like anti-matter with time, I think I know how we can explain what's happening and why it's dangerous, because you don't want time and anti-time to collide, much like you don't want matter and anti-matter to come together, either.

In an early version of the story, instead of using Dr. Beverly Crusher's (Gates McFadden) medical ship, the Pasteur , the crew in the future timeline were going to take the mothballed Enterprise from a museum—  

Yes, and that was cut from an early draft. We really wanted to do it, too, but we ended up on Beverly's medical ship instead. But that's not what it was supposed to be. It was supposed to be stealing the Enterprise out of a museum, which I think Terry [Matalas, Braga's former writer's assistant] ended up doing a version of on [the final season of] Picard . By the way, if you think about it for a second, it's much better, because you've got the three Enterprise s working together. That's perfection. With all due respect to Beverly's medical ship, it would have been more emotionally satisfying if it were the Enterprise .

There was a fourth timeline involving the Borg that stemmed from the events of TNG 's third season finale, "The Best of Both Worlds, Part I." Do you recall any scene specifics?

I may be misremembering, but it may have had to do with an assimilated Earth.

I believe it was a timeline where the Borg had won. But I know we added it because we thought we needed additional stakes, that the time anomaly might be too abstract. And we were eager to bring the Borg back, because we hadn't really dipped our toe into the Borg, full throttle, like we did with "Best of Both Worlds." I don't remember specific scenes, unfortunately. But I do remember it didn't last long. It wasn't working. Michael didn't want it. It became pretty clear, pretty quickly, that three was the right number. But that was something Ron and I carried into the development and script for Star Trek: First Contact [the 1996 sequel to Generations ].

I am surprised you didn't ask me about the "people getting younger" subplot that Michael Piller wanted to do.

Whoa, I didn't even know that was a thing, and I've watched this episode a ton. Can I ask you about that now?

I'm going to tell you about it. So there was a subplot that took place in the present-day storyline, where we were going to have all these ships that came and gathered around the anomaly, because it turns out that the anomaly had some anti-aging effect. It was de-aging people, and ships were gathering from all over to soak in the rays of the anomaly.

So that explains, in part, where a pregnant nurse on the Enterprise becomes "un-pregnant" and loses her baby. And why Geordi LaForge's [the blind engineer played by LeVar Burton] eyes start acting up.

Right. Those are little remnants of the storyline that got cut. And I think the reason it got cut out was it didn't have to do anything with anything. Ron and I were resistant to it, because we didn't think it really serviced the main plot of the episode, the emotional story for the characters. And, of course, Michael Piller would end up taking those ideas and using them in [the 1998 feature film] Star Trek: Insurrection .

How was it when you first watched the final episode? Do you remember where you were?

I had seen early cuts of the episode, but the first time I saw it was at the premiere on the lot that Paramount did. And Michael wasn't generous with his compliments. So when he did compliment you, it really meant something. And I remember every one, because he was a real mentor to me. And I owe so much to him. And he complimented us at the after-party. He was happy. And it was his legacy, too.

All seven seasons of  Star Trek: The Next Generation are now streaming on Paramount+.

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'Star Trek' writer Brannon Braga made TV history with this classic 'Next Gen' Episode

The writer of TNG 's "Cause and Effect" reveals how he pulled off this exciting time loop episode on its 30th anniversary. 

"We were really excited about the idea of blowing up the Enterprise."

While writer Brannon Braga and the rest of the Star Trek: The Next Generation staff were eager to destroy the hit series' flagship 30 years ago today, fans were not prepared for it. Especially when the classic TNG episode "Cause and Effect" opened with the explosion of the iconic vessel.

"Cause and Effect," which aired on March 23, 1992, centers on Captain Picard (Patrick Stewart) and his crew struggling to free themselves and their ship from colliding with another in an endless series of fatal time loops. In less than 50 seconds of screen time, this Season 5 episode's teaser (one of TV's greatest) set the tone for an episode that would spend the next three decades ranking as one of the best hours that the show and the franchise had ever done. It was the first time that Star Trek (and television) had attempted something like this, but Braga's deceptively simple narrative structure gave way to a surplus of tension and high stakes for our characters. And director Jonathan Frakes (who also plays Commander Riker) and his crew shot the hell out of the episode; they found ways that kept each loop visually unique while making sure audiences were never ahead of the characters' efforts, led by Dr. Crusher (Gates MacFadden), to solve this elusive puzzle and free the Enterprise from its Groundhog Day -like hell (two years before Groundhog Day was even a thing).

For the 30th anniversary of "Cause and Effect," SYFY WIRE revisited the episode with its writer to take a deep dive into the making of an all-timer adventure in the Final Frontier.

With producers Rick Berman and Michael Piller having very specific, some would say "rigid," visions for what constituted a TNG episode, how did you get this outside-the-box idea to air?

I was pitching to [showrunner] Michael Pillar a Rashomon idea that I wanted to. I've always been interested in something like that, something that let me tell the same story, several different times, from various points of view. I just couldn't figure out how to best do it, until I thought: "Well, why not just tell the same story over and over? That seemed like something we had not seen before, or at least I didn't. But, at the time, we weren't really committed to doing time travel [stories]. But what I was thinking was: "Well, time travel doesn't have to just be traveling back in time. What if we were caught up in a time loop?" So that's how it came to be.

I wish I could have seen the cast and other writers' reactions when they first read the script.

[laughs] I think people, the reactions to the script were similar to the reactions that the audience had, which was confusion. Because when you're reading that script, you're like: "Wait. This has to be a mistake." And this was back when people would call into TV stations, I guess, they would call a lot of affiliates. The show was syndicated, as you know, and the affiliates were getting phone calls during the broadcast [saying] something was wrong with the broadcast.

This isn't my finest hour, but my dad and I, we were one of those phone calls.

Is that true?

Yeah, I'm from Erie, PA. And it aired at 11:30pm on Saturday nights and I was too young to stay up, so I had to tape it. And when I was watching it the next day, we thought something was wrong. And it didn't help that there was some sort of signal glitch, like something was off with the tracking on the broadcast or on the tape when it started. So we called up the local CBS affiliate and we were like, "Um..."

Well, that's amazing. I think people bought it once they got past the confusion and probably thought what I did, which is: "This could be really cool, or it could be an utter and complete failure, right?" It was just not something that was done at the time. The stories [on Next Gen ] were linear, and this was something — at the time, anyway — that was fairly radical. But it was a science fiction show, and I thought, "Well, why can't we do this?" You know, we should experiment more. And if it fails, it fails. We had 26 episodes a season.

But you have to give a lot of credit to Frakes, who directed it. He made the wise decision to shoot each iteration of the loop slightly differently. And if you watch the show, you should realize that there isn't a mistake. Right? Because things are being shot slightly differently each time from different characters' points of view, and it's a really masterful job of directing that he did. It kind of made it work. But I just assumed I'd be fired because it's such an out there, out-of-left-field thing. But it turned out to be one of the more popular episodes of the season than we realized. And I'm still talking about it, 30 years later, which is amazing, but I don't know why. For some reason, it just connected and you can tell me, I mean, really, you're the one who should be interviewed. What was it about the episode that struck you?

I just liked how, every loop through, we are never ahead of the crew. We are right there with them, which I hadn't felt before in an episode. They have to lean on each other. And the all the stuff we've seen, you know, week in and week out, it's all compressed in these ten, 12 minute acts. And the fact that each loop through, they lose the progress they made previously and have to reset, that's just great television.

Right. It's also, I think, we were really excited about the idea of blowing up the Enterprise [in the teaser]. That's just not something you get to do. Now, at the time — forget the episode — just the teaser, where the Enterprise blows up at the end. That was a little "holy crap" moment for the audience. That was a big deal, a surprise, at the time. And, it's not a deep character piece. It's a lean techno thriller. But I think one of the things that Next Gen did really well, in addition to the deeper character episodes or the geopolitical episodes, was high concept. And I think it resonated with audiences. And still does.

How difficult was it for you to structure this episode? To find new ways into the same loops but also when to use them to give out different information and clues than the loop before?

It was very challenging. It's a deceptive script, because it seems simple enough. Just cut and paste the same act over and over again. The opening, the moment that leads up to their destruction, I wanted it to be identical dialog [that replayed], but with subtle nuances here and there. And it was actually. Challenging in that regard to know how much to layer in without giving too much away. The other challenge was to make it so that, when you're reading the script, make it a page turner, you know?

But the most challenging thing about the episode was, and it was a scene I wrote and rewrote over and over again, was the scene where Geordi (LaVar Burton) explains just what the hell is going on. That was my first big conference room scene, my first real "technobabble" scene as a Star Trek writer. And it had to be "cool," it couldn't just be — it had to sound plausible. It had to resolve all the clues that had been accumulating. And I think what made it palatable was things like hearing the voices of the crew murmuring, you hear those other loops that are kind of layering over each other. It's a little creepy at times, too.

Were those usually the biggest pains in the butt, writing those technobabble briefing room scenes?

Yeah, they were. But, you know, with the kinds of episodes that I tended to gravitate toward, they're always there. The best example would be, there was an episode in the seventh season called "Parallels," where Worf is jumping between different quantum reality timelines. And I had to explain that one, too [laughs]. But that's the challenge when you're writing the "high concept" episodes. There are a lot easier to come up with, and they are a lot harder to resolve in the end, in a satisfying way.

"Cause and Effect" and all seven seasons of Star Trek: The Next Generation are available to stream now on Paramount+ .

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'Star Trek: TNG' Cast Says 'Cynical' Gene Roddenberry Would Have Been 'Thrilled' with 'Picard' Series

"We're serving his vision," Star Trek: Picard star Jonathan Frakes exclusively tells PEOPLE of the franchise's late creator

The cast of Star Trek: The Next Generation is reflecting on the franchise's legacy — and what its late creator, Gene Roddenberry, would've thought about Picard — as the Paramount+ series comes to a close.

Speaking to PEOPLE at the Picard finale screening on Thursday — the same day that the series finale dropped on Paramount+ — cast members of TNG say not only did reuniting for the third season of the sequel series deepen their already close bond, the critical acclaim and fan appreciation would've delighted the franchise's creator.

"He'd surely be thrilled, right?" Jonathan Frakes , who plays Will Riker and directs several episodes of the season, says of Roddenberry, who died at age 70 in October 1991 following a series of health complications.

Despite Roddenberry's visionary, optimistic view of the future that informed both the original Star Trek series that launched in 1966 and its TNG follow-up that debuted in 1987, Frakes, 70, says the legendary writer-producer could also see the world — especially that of cutthroat Hollywood — in a harsher light.

"Even as cynical a man as he was, I'm sure he'd be thrilled," the actor notes at the Los Angeles event, where he was joined by his longtime co-stars Patrick Stewart , Brent Spiner , LeVar Burton , Gates McFadden , Michael Dorn and Star Trek: Voyager veteran-turned- Picard regular Jeri Ryan . "And I think we're serving his vision."

"A lot of his principles, of a world where there's no sexism and no racism and no money and people respect each other, I think that's at the core of this whole idea," Frakes adds. "And I think it's part of it's the key to the success of the whole thing."

The bond that the TNG cast shared "was almost immediately deep, and always deep," says Stewart, 82, who plays the spinoff's titular Starfleet admiral Jean-Luc Picard.

"There was a connection that we all made and which was nurtured and encouraged and survived," he explains of the seven seasons of the series and the additional four theatrical films. "I've worked with a lot of companies, groups of actors in plays that ran for a year or in other shows, television shows that have run for more than a year, and nothing has had the impact on my life like this."

Frakes was in agreement. "Unlike some shows, we were a family, we all got this job that sort of changed our lives at the same time," he says. "LeVar was already a big star; Wil Wheaton was a bit of a star; but the rest of us were trying to cobble together our careers and this was this was the career-changing job for all of us. And I think we all appreciate it at the same time. And still do."

Throughout that long, shared history, the central cast — which also includes Marina Sirtis, who plays Deanna Troi, but was unable to attend the screening — has stayed in near-constant contact, through conventions, personal appearances "and just life ," says Burton, 66, who plays Geordi LaForge.

But working again as an ensemble two decades after the final TNG film premiered strengthened their bond even further.

"I think it brings us closer together, without a doubt," says Frakes. "There's something about being 20 years older than the last time we were all together that I don't think it just helped me, I think it helped all of us. The characters are deeper… And it was quite thrilling."

"We all felt, 'Wow – pinch ourselves! Is this really happening?'" recalls McFadden, who plays Dr. Beverly Crusher. "That we not only are in each other's lives, but that we can actually be working together."

The cast's legendarily playful off-screen rapport — singing, dancing and joking between takes — returned "immediately," McFadden, 74, says, "because we're all close friends — and that's really genuine. We all know what's happening in each other's lives, pretty much, and so it was a joy to do it."

Adds Spiner, 74, who plays the android officer Data: "I don't think there was any apprehension whatsoever about whether we were all going to have fun together, because we do see each other all the time."

"If we were any closer, it would be obscene," he notes with a laugh. "We're as close as you can get already, so it just laid it in for a little bit more."

Ryan, who plays Seven of Nine, says it was "phenomenal" to watch the TNG cast at work after a long stint as part of the extended Star Trek family.

"I've been friends with all these guys for twenty-something years since I started on 'Voyager,' so I've known them all socially. I've worked with a couple of them as directors over the years on different projects. But to all be on set together and to be actually working together as actors was such a treat and just such a joy," says the actress, 55. "I mean, they're all goofballs and cutups and it was absolute chaos most of the time, but it was so much fun!"

Even though Dorn expected the established chemistry to easily reemerge, the actor, who plays the Klingon officer Worf, says he was still surprised to discover "halfway through the filming, I was having a blast – like a real blast!"

He even found himself reliving warm memories when he watched the penultimate episode, in which the cast reassembled on a revived version of the Bridge of the starship from TNG , Enterprise-D .

"When I saw the Bridge on the screen, that, to me, was a moment, because it transported me back to the first day that I saw the Bridge," recalls Dorn, 70. "I wasn't in makeup, I was just there visiting, basically after a makeup test, and it was this feeling of comfortableness of familiarity. Like your home – your living room or something. And that's what I felt watching at this time. And seeing all of us there, the same thing. It's a real surreal moment."

Burton's 28-year-old daughter Mica — who joined the cast onscreen for the first time, playing Geordi's daughter Alandra — admitted she wasn't prepared to see her father's heartfelt response to reuniting with his old friends.

"Since I've grown up on sets, I've watched him direct. I've watched him act, and I was surprised that he was so emotional, honestly," she shares. "I was honored to be witness to that… I came in ready to work and I got very overwhelmed seeing him burst into tears on our first day at set. Everybody got really emotional, but when you've known somebody for almost 30 years and then they're on set with you, it's a pretty emotional time. So it was pretty cool to see that other side of him."

"It gave us an opportunity to play together on a level that brought back a lot of our youth and I think that it really reaffirmed for us that we don't suck at this," notes Burton, who like the rest of the cast did not rule out future reunions or appearances as their beloved characters, but was utterly satisfied with their latest experience together.

"If nothing else happens after this, I'm good," he adds. "This was unexpected, and a great gift."

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Star Trek: Picard season 3 is now streaming on Paramount+.

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Interview: Cirroc Lofton And Denise Crosby On Watching And Podcasting ‘Star Trek: TNG’ Season 1

| May 18, 2023 | By: Laurie Ulster 17 comments so far

When Cirroc Lofton and Ryan T. Husk were nearing the end of their journey through Star Trek: Deep Space Nine on their popular 7th Rule podcast and considered covering Star Trek: The Next Generation , Husk suggested asking Denise Crosby (Tasha Yar) to join them for her episodes. Since the two Trek vets had spent time together on the Star Trek Cruise and felt the chemistry was right, they made it so! They’ve been watching and reviewing season 1 of TNG. As they approach the end of Tasha Yar’s run, we talked to Cirroc and Denise about the ups and downs of this odd season and their thoughts on how their characters could fit into the current Star Trek landscape.

This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.

Taking their first look at TNG season 1

I’ve been watching a lot of 7th Rule , you guys are so fun to listen to as you make your way through season 1. It’s a wacky season, that’s for sure.

Denise Crosby: What were they thinking? [laughs] We should retitle it for my season: The 7 th Rule: What Were They Thinking?

Cirroc, this is your first time through The Next Generation. Had you seen any of it before?

Cirroc Lofton: I know the overall… who Patrick Stewart is and Commander Riker and all of that, I knew who the characters were. But I didn’t watch any of the shows. I didn’t know any of the storylines.

Denise hadn’t revisited since she did it 30-plus years ago, so she’s able to get the same experience that I got when I watched Deep Space Nine for the first time. Now looking at it, especially these many years removed from it, it’s a totally different thing and I’m so glad Denise is getting the opportunity to relive these moments herself.

Denise: Let’s face it, I had no intention of ever watching these again. I’m not sure that I WILL ever watch them again. I mean, who does that? That’s a whole other level of Freudian psychoanalysis. If you’re sitting there watching all the television you’ve done in a loop, you are now entering Gloria Swanson, Sunset Boulevard . But yeah, I watched these when I when I made them and then I’ve never seen them again.

From what you’ve seen so far, what are your broad strokes impressions of season 1 of Next Generation?

Cirroc: I think it’s an amazing cast of actors. I really liked this cast. This first season is difficult for me because some of the stories are not fleshed out, some of the interpersonal working relationships seem a little bit dated to a time that was not evolved in its political correctness or an acceptance of people or its identification of rights of individuals, so those things had to get flushed out. The chauvinism, for example, some of the characteristics of Black people in some of those episodes. The sexualization of, in particular, Tasha. Those things are hard to digest. But those are the things that I think makes The Next Generation transcend even some of the bad episodes. It is bringing in a lexicon of ideas that will become instrumental in how we live our day-to-day lives.

Denise, what’s been your biggest surprise as you watch?

Denise: It’s a really interesting way to view something that is so integrated into my life but at arm’s length now, and with the perspective that I have now, almost 36 years later, of life’s experience and motherhood and many, many fundamental, foundational changes than the young woman I was then. I knew what I was going through then, but now, almost 36 years pass, and you go, ‘Well, was I right?’ or ‘Did I see that clearly?’ So I’m looking at the inconsistencies of the storylines and what I was promised, what was dangled in front of me, what I thought was going to happen.

So it is gelling, in a way. And then I’m noticing things that I didn’t really see as much, the real sexualization of Tasha Yar in the beginning. We were very reflective in some ways—other ways very futuristic—but in some ways of the late ’80s and what white men were putting up on the screen, how they wanted to see women… I sort of feel like I was thrown into this progressive role but then they didn’t do anything with it. I was the token woman in what would be a man’s position. But that’s not enough; then you have to follow through.

Are you seeing more nuance to the character than you thought?

Denise: Yeah. I can see why Tasha would hold people’s imagination and be a very positive, strong force. She brought a spontaneity, a life force to that part. That was my intention, I didn’t want her to be a militaristic hardass. I wanted her to be vulnerable and also have some doubts, and be sort of impetuous and off the cuff at times, but with strength and knowledge and rigorous training. She was there for a reason.

It’s all there. And the sexism problem got so much better by the time of Deep Space Nine . There weren’t as many female main characters, but they were light years beyond what was going on in Next Gen. And then Voyager took it further, and then it kind of reversed for Enterprise , I thought.

Denise: Yeah. Well, you’ve got to see who’s writing this stuff. Who are the showrunners, who’s creating it? There was a big shift when Michael Piller came into the [Star Trek] world. And you know, they were just trying to replicate the ’60s formula in the first year of The Next Generation .

Tasha Yar gets infected with a familiar virus in “The Naked Now”

“Code of Honor,” “Symbiosis,” and “Skin of Evil”

Let’s talk about “Code of Honor.” Denise, I totally agree with you that it shouldn’t be removed from circulation.   Jonathan Frakes has suggested putting a warning or explanation on it. Cirroc, how do you feel about the episode staying in rotation?

Cirroc: I don’t have a problem with it staying in rotation. I think you learn from history and you grow from it. You can’t ignore it. If there is no progress and we can’t recognize that it’s something that we’ve evolved from as a society, if we don’t see that difference, then we haven’t moved anywhere.

In Deep Space Nine , they had the episode “ Far Beyond the Stars ,” and in that episode, my character was killed by the police in an act of police violence. When we watch now, it brings up so many emotions of different cases in which we’ve seen that thing play out. And unfortunately, we haven’t moved far from there. That episode is set in the ’50s and here it is in the 2020s. And it’s still something that we’re dealing with as an issue, we haven’t resolved to move forward from it. And, to our credit, at least in this particular “Code of Honor” case, we can realize, hey, we’ve to some degree moved past that stereotype of how we’re going to depict Black men on television. We’ve seen the light, that there’s more to Black people than these stereotypes that they use, the sexualization, and all of these other kinds of really brute physical, basic concepts.

I wouldn’t be opposed to putting a disclaimer in front of it saying ‘This was filmed in 1987/88, and the views expressed in here are no longer…’ [laughs] Yeah, I wish we could.

Denise: It allows us to have these kinds of conversations. I was there in the thick of it and I was walking around going, “They’ll never get this on the air.” I believe that because we were a show made for syndication, there was no network overriding the producers. We were the bastard stepchildren, at the far end of the lot in shitty trailers and shitty craft service, and no one paid any attention. Gene Roddenberry had total control of the show. And there weren’t network execs getting the dailies like people would do in television at that point. And that’s the only reason I can wrap my head around that this was made and this was aired. Just like when I broke the fourth wall in “Symbiosis” and waved—was anyone paying attention? Did anyone watch this?

“Code of Honor”—that’s the one you can target. But then there’s all these other sexual innuendos towards me and there’s stuff that Frakes is doing, his character of Riker… there’s all kinds of stuff.

Have you gotten to “Skin of Evil” yet? Denise, did you watch it when it aired?

Denise: When it aired only. And it’s so funny, because obviously I shot it, and when I watched it, I watched it alone in my living room. Sobbing. Talk about meta, you know… I’m watching my own character and having this really touching moment, and it’s actually moving me, is that normal? Should I be having this emotional reaction to watching myself? That’s a very strange thing to happen as an actor.

We’ll talk about it next time we meet, me watching it now for the first time in five years, if it still hits me in that way or how it hits me. It’ll be interesting.

Tasha (as a hologram) says farewell in “Skin of Evil”

The Ferengi in TNG vs. DS9

On Deep Space Nine , we have these beautifully developed characters of Quark, Rom, and Nog… Cirroc what did you think watching the original Ferengis on Next Gen ?

Cirroc: [laughs] Well, they say that we evolved or came from cavemen, so I think of this as the caveman version of Ferengi. But, yeah, that was a poor attempt of showing us an “advanced” civilization that is able to compete with the Federation, or at least be a worthy adversary. And for them to be presented in that way is actually a contradiction to what they put out there. So I think that was poorly thought out.

Meeting the Ferengi in TNG’s “The Last Outpost”

It was my character that essentially bridged the Human-Ferengi relationship gap. And we see how well that turned out as far as who Nog turned out to be as a person. Those low expectations of people are the things that hold people back to some degree. When you have low expectations for people, and you don’t think that they’re capable of doing things, and you express that to them and put that on them, it diminishes their ability. But when you give someone the hope and optimism that they’re capable of doing anything and overcoming anything and achieving anything, then that will become true for them as well. So I think when Jake and Nog forged this relationship and we saw Nog become such an exemplary person and such a great role model for us to watch as he went through his training and become a Starfleet officer, those are the kinds of things that we can all be inspired from.

Nog (Aron Eisenberg) and Jake in DS9’s “In the Cards”

Modern-day Star Trek

What do you think about the recent resurgence of Star Trek in the world?

Cirroc: I think there’s a lot of people out there that are thirsty for that kind of inspiration, that kind of storytelling. I’m happy with the decisions that they’ve made… people like Sonequa Martin-Green, who has been an excellent ambassador for Star Trek as well as for Black women as captains on the show. I really like the animated stuff, I love Lower Decks and what they’re doing there with Mike McMahan and Tawny Newsome, they’re doing an excellent job. Prodigy is knocking it out of the park with the Hageman brothers and Aaron Waltke. I think Strange New Worlds is going to be the flagship show going into the future, I’m looking forward to watching and going on the journey with them. So I think Star Trek’s in a really good place. And I want to commend Alex Kurtzman for being a really good ambassador for the brand and for taking the time to cater to the fans and check all the boxes off.

Denise: The way we get our content has changed. So because we have these streaming services, this allows for a different model, a different way of creating the shows. So someone like Terry Matalas, who just is a fan of Next Gen, he’s able to create a vision as a true fan, and they have the opportunities to do multiple products; it doesn’t have to be a pilot that gets x amount of ratings, so they can take something, just like Paramount’s doing with the Yellowstone franchise, spinning off prequels and sequels and all kinds of stuff.  Because we’re part of a legacy that lives on.

Is there any one show in particular that each of you would love to resurrect your character on? Because it’s Star Trek, you can turn up anywhere. 

Denise: I was thinking a lot about this. I had tweeted something because Tasha as a hologram came up [on Picard ]. And I tweeted it’s just so lovely to be acknowledged on this show and be included. And Terry Matalas tweeted me back, and then he went, “Sela next?” And so I started going down this road thinking ‘What if Tasha was never dead?’ She escaped and went into hiding. And so Sela and Tasha get to meet. Sela would be the same age as Tasha.

Sela next? — Terry Matalas (@TerryMatalas) April 7, 2023

Like for a completely new show?

Denise: A totally new show. Not MY show, but as part of a Terry Matalas show.

Like the  Legacy show people are hoping for?

Denise: Maybe. Yeah. that’s what he was inferring. And I just thought, we never really knew if Tasha died and she’s such a survivor, it makes sense that she would have escaped Romulus when she was taken hostage. That’s what happens. You start going down that path.

So Cirroc, where would you see Jake? 

Cirroc: When I was watching the first season of Picard and Picard was being interviewed by a reporter. I was thinking ‘Hey, that would have been great for me.’ I could have easily been the one grilling him about what happened. That would have made sense. I told Tawny Newsome on the cruise that I’d probably be dating Mariner if I was animated. There’s all kinds of ways to incorporate me. I’m just happy that the new people in the Star Trek family are so wonderful and such great ambassadors for the for the franchise. All of the new people that I’ve met are just lovely. Doug Jones, and Todd Stashwick, these are amazing people.

The expansion of the fans has also been a wonderful thing.  To meet all these new people that are getting brought back into the fold, to meet fans of my show that weren’t even born when the show went off the air… doing this podcast has been also an exceptional gift that keeps on giving. Thanks to the late great Aron Eisenberg, thanks to my partner Ryan T. Husk. This has been the thing that has kept me attached to Star Trek and helped me nurture and grow relationships that I’ve already had. Those are the wonderful things, the opportunity that this podcast has been for me.

Denise Crosby and Cirroc Lofton talking 7th Rule with Dr. Mohamed Noor on the Star Trek Cruise

The kids of Star Trek

Denise, are you staying on 7th Rule for all seven seasons of TNG?

Denise: No, I’ll pop back in when I come back in. That’s probably how that’s gonna go.

I do hope you get to watch some of the later ones because it is an extraordinary show. So much of it still holds up so well.

Denise: Yeah, there have been some great surprises in this first season in terms of themes which have been really impressive, things way ahead of the game, whether it’s AI stuff and arms proliferation and climate change and nonbinary characters, all kinds of stuff that you go ‘Wow, they’re talking about some stuff way before.’

Also in terms of leadership. I think Picard shifted how we saw leaders in a very unique way. And Sisko did too, and then Janeway, each time they evolve. We’re seeing a different type of leadership and what it means to be a leader. And especially with the Siskos’ relationship, having a parent who’s in a leadership position was groundbreaking and illuminating for all of us.

Denise: Especially coming off Picard of Next Gen, when his whole setup in the first season is how uncomfortable he is with children, and there are kids on his ship for the first time, and he has no idea, he’s asking for Riker’s help to deal with children!

Cirroc: That was a surprise to me, how they wrote it like that. He was so fussy around kids. I thought that was kind of unusual. You know, he was really irritated… “What’s the boy doing?”

Denise:  His tone was so mad all the time, whenever Wil [Wheaton] came around… and of course, Wil solved every single problem, every episode. Why wouldn’t you just love this guy?

Cirroc: Only 10 out of 12 episodes, okay? [laughs]

Denise: “ Arsenal of Freedom ,” he was not there. He was doing homework. But otherwise he’d have known how to fix that whatever-that-thing-was, that gun toy.

Cirroc, when you started doing Deep Space Nine, Next Gen was still running. Did you and Wil Wheaton ever get together and have any conversations as the kids of Star Trek?

Cirroc: No. That was a crazy thing… I actually never had a chance to meet him until not too long ago when we officially met. We’re at events sometimes together, you’re at the 50th anniversary or whatever anniversary and there’s a thousand people there, so it’s hard to kind of mingle and get to know each other. But we actually officially introduced ourselves and exchanged phone numbers at the Picard premiere for the final season.

Have you guys compared notes?

Cirroc: We did a little bit of comparing on the day we took that picture. But we still have a follow-up to do and I didn’t want to follow up and meet with him until I had seen a little bit of Next Generation because it doesn’t feel fair. When I met him, he was like, ‘Yeah, I Just watched Deep Space Nine during Covid. I was binge watching.’ And I’m like, ‘Oh, I kind of haven’t seen your show, you’re before me.’ So I felt bad. So now Denise and I are watching this show that gives us an understanding of what his character was doing, and how many times he was saving the day. And how many cool sweaters he had. And we can exchange notes on how bad we were dressed.

I finally met @wilw ! At the #StarTrekPicard premiere. Great guy! Looking forward to many more great conversations with you, Wil. pic.twitter.com/h2zi0xE7qR — Cirroc Lofton (@CirrocL) February 10, 2023

The Sisko Day is coming!

Do you and Ryan have a plan for 7th Rule after Denise’s episodes are done? 

Cirroc: We haven’t fully worked that out yet. What’s next on the menu for us is we’ve announced that we’re going to honor Captain Sisko with The Sisko Day, which will be coming up on May 22. And we’ve set up a website ( thesiskoday.com ) where people who love Captain Sisko can write on a digital wall and give homage to him and say whatever they feel. May 22 is the day that he was basically announced as the Emissary, that’s why we made it that day. And we’re going to pay homage to Captain Sisko by giving people the opportunity to tell the world how much they love him and what he means to them.

Sisko is such a great character. “Explorers” is one of my very favorite Deep Space  Nine episodes, even more so when I became a parent.

Cirroc: One of my great favorite moments was working with him on that one, it was a very intimate episode. I still have a souvenir from that episode, which is the Bajoran space map. One of the few things I took with me. Oh, I was “gifted” that—let’s go with that.

Watch The 7th Rule on YouTube or listen to it wherever you get your podcasts.

Keep up with news about the  Star Trek Universe at TrekMovie.com

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I like to see one of this announced movies with the TNG-Crew , the Enterprise-D, Rikers as Captain and a mission deep in former Romulan Space so Sela could be involved and PLEAAASEEE without gigantomania ! The one year gap in the final episode of STP would leave room for such a story. Now that the Enterprise’s bridge has been reconstructed, it would be a shame not to use it a little bit longer.

Love a TNG movie, especially after how amazing season 3 was.

Sexism in Trek. Gene Roddenberry casts a long shadow.

Oh my… I cannot help myself… I simply love TNG S1 so much… I’ll never be able to understand its bad reputation. I do get the crticism of Code of Honor but at least the ep had TNG’s only score by a TOS composer. Most of the rest are my all-time favourite episodes: Where No One Has Gone Before, The Last Outpost (yes, I LOVE it to death), Justice (it really pushed a button with my 13-year-old self back in the day), 11001001, Heart of Glory, Conspiracy, We’ll Always Have Paris, Skin of Evil, Arsenal of Freedom … that’s my kind of Trek… adventures on cardboard hell worlds… they just don’t make it like that anymore.

They even didn’t make it like that in later seasons of TNG… The seasons considered to be “much better” by the fanbase exchanged my “planet hell” for mystery of the week bottled shows… They weren’t bad but not my favourites… I love my crews waltzing down on those lovely colorful old-fashioned planetary sets… TOS, Space 1999, Doctor Who Tom Baker years…the stuff I truly cherish… It still happens from time to time on newer shows but it’s one in ten episodes you get to see something remotely like that. TNG S1 had it every other episode…

Yeah, I’m kind of with you on this. Lol. People will call me crazy (and do), and yet I have so much affection for early TNG. Like, it may not be objectively good on several levels, sure. But I have a lot of trouble separating that kind of objective analysis from the overwhelming store of joy-based nostalgia that wells up from deep in my soul when these episodes come on…

Meh. For me, joy should always trump objectivity. :)

I think it’s the most TOS-esque of the series. I like it too.

Hear, hear. I love the first two seasons, and always will.

The Shuttle Pod has great episodes about each of those first two seasons! Very fun listens.

Thanks for the great interview, Laurie! I’ve enjoyed watching the 7th Rule since the late Aron Eisenberg was featured with Cirroc Lofton. Denise Crosby has brought a welcome sensibility to their discussions of TNG.

I had missed the announcement about “The Sisko” Day this Monday, so this neat idea was nice to hear. One can hope that Avery Brooks might be encouraged to revisit DS9 in order to fulfill Sisko’s ethically and symbolically important promise to Kassidy (and Jake) that he would return and reunite this exemplary family.

Of the various performers I’d like to see back, it’s a short list, and Avery Brooks is at the top of it. Then I check myself. Anyone who left the business for other endeavors or because their health and welfare demanded it deserve to have those wishes honored. They’ve paid their dues, fans need to respect that.

Yeah exactly.

Oh, I understand that. But one can always hope for some resolution of this glaring loose end in ways that respect both the character and the actor.

i don’t know that I’d say it was unresolved as much as while we as the viewer were no longer a witness to it, life on DS9 continued. Kassidy knew that Sisko would return one day (maybe even yesterday) but for now had taken his place with the Prophets. The last shot says so much without a single line of dialogue. Jake looking out the window of the Promendade at the wormhole knowing his father is alive out there somewhere and that when he returns, Jake will be there waiting for him on DS9.

I wish Avery Brooks hadn’t retired from acting. Between his performance and the great writing I always felt Sisko was the most fully fleshed out Trek Captain.

The way the two animated shows (or even a follow-up to Picard) go, Brooks doesn’t have to be involved, if he doesn’t want to be. You could have Jake appear and have a throwaway- although anything but that to fans- line about what his father’s been doing since he’s been back. Or something along those lines. It could even be an on-screen caption, something like what they just did with Kirk in Picard. Like a newsflash on a screen of “Bajor Sector in Upheaval as Emissary Returns.” Hopefully Brooks would give his blessing. We do know that he wants Sisko to be back as well.

Bring Back Jake Sisko !

Fun interview! I haven’t seen Wil Wheaton do very much Star Trek adjacent media aside from The Ready Room. I think it would be great to have him join 7th Rule for Season 2 (with maybe a season 1 recap episode to get him and all of us up to speed). I’ve certainly enjoyed listening to their Season 1 recap reviews along side The Greatest Generation.

I love the idea of Wil and Cirroc teaming up! I don’t know if Wil can do that stuff in addition to The Ready Room but it’s a fun idea.